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The Idealizing, Devaluing and Discarding of Jesus — 249 Comments

  1. StrongWoman, Skylar says no to contact. I’m bummed but respect her position on the issue. I’d still like to be connected but the great and powerful Skylar has spoken! 🙂 ( no of fence meant Skylar! 😉
    Maybe some day in the future. Until then, it is what it is and this is what it is.
    I hope you are well? Things seem a little better for now. Just swallowing reality one painful sip at a time. I got a blocked email notice that Spath x had tried to send me something. No clue what it said, which is why he is blocked. Probably another FU fest because I called his sister. What’s done is done…..

    I’m wondering, anyone, if the Spath x ever did nice thoughtful things or were they entirely a POS. I’m having sad thoughts…..because in his world he tried to make me happy, not enough. Or did he? Anything he did do was either punctuated with BS games, before during or after.
    There was this situation…….I kept telling him that I would really like it if he would make his breakfast casserole for us because it had been so long and I really like it. Months went by, probably 3? 4? Finally, he announced it was time. So, what does he do? He uses yellow cheepo cheddar cheese. I NEVER buy yellow cheddar cheese. Always white, always the same brand, etc. so I see that was a test. I just ignored it. I was over a barrel. If I would have said….hey! Why did you use yellow cheddar cheese when you know I don’t like it? I would have been wrong for complaining. And by not saying nothing, I betray myself and he gets a power boost. He even made some comment about buying the good old cheap cheddar cheese. WTF box?

    • Hey Dorothy, I don’t control the entire web, I only control this little slice. Seriously, you should try chatroom, we’ve had some fun in there.

      • I know Skylar…please don’t think I’m on your case or have a problem with your position in this? I think I get what you are saying. I understand you don’t want to be in the middle of a contact and I respect your decision.
        So, I’m not sure how to work the chat room thingie! Ill poke around some.
        🙂

      • Skylar, I know someone who DOES believe she controls the entire web LOL!
        The Internet is a psychopath’s wonderland, isn’t it? I’d read a few months ago that over 25% of Internet content is pornography, and that wouldn’t surprise me at all. If it deteriorates much further the web will have to be renamed “Pedonet.”

    • Ancient heart and Dorothy,

      There is an advertisement on TV here where the cartoon characters boobs bounce up and down. I never noticed this until the spath pointed it out. It’s an ad for car insurance. He would sit and watch intently. Sick.

      I discovered his predilection for porn sites while checking his internet history. He ALWAYS made sure he deleted his history after that.

  2. Strong woman, I’m convinced they all the hints and “tells” I actually, looking back now, saw and noticed when I was with IT, I was unable to really GET because of being so weakendby the cognitive dissonance influence. Thinking about it now, I haves similar “feeling”, something that reminds me of childhood, of hopelessness or helplessness. Defeat.
    I don’t think anyone’s brain handles confusion and WTF behaviors well. I honestly think it is emotional and mental death to mine with FASD. Sensory overload. Confronting him about anything was only met with evasive maneuvers from him, mental overload. The image that comes to mind is that trick people do when they pull the table cloth out from under the dishes so fast that the dishes all stay in place only with him the dishes all went up in the air and came back down in different places. I spend the next days trying to put the dishes back at the correct place setting. I’d never quite complete the task before he would jerk the table cloth again. It just kept getting more and more jumbled up.
    I’m SO very sure, an instinct, that Spath was bisexual. And I’m fairly sure he has an interest in children. God only knows what else…..anything goes when the whistle blows is probably the reality.
    The truth of how I felt about him, at the time, is tat I would have stood by his side if he wanted to get help and address any issue he had. I think that is the crux…….he doesn’t have a problem with his depravity.
    StrongWoman, would you like to try the chat feature? I don’t understand how it works. How you set up a time, date between us.
    Hope you are well across the pond!

    • Yes Dorothy, hindsight is a wonderful thing. Their hints at something far more sinister lying beneath can indeed be subtle.

      Just go to community tab at the top of this page …if you’re logged in you should automatically enter the chat room.

  3. This was most interesting reading. I’ll have to read it again to understand it even better I guess, but here are some first reactions.

    1) I understand that you read the story from a Jungian perspective, and then it indeed becomes the story of a “hero”. It’s Jesus who changes. Although your reading is very convincing and indeed possible, I think it remains equally possible to consider the story from the perspective of Jesus’ apostles. As I understand the Gospel stories, they are about their change, about something they have “learned”, brought about by the experience of the resurrection of Jesus.

    2) You seem to make a distinction between “forgiving” and “judging”. Let me quote your questions: “Can one forgive another without first judging them? And even when one forgives, should it then follow that the repenting should go unpunished?”

    I’d suggest the following: to forgive someone implies that you judge him. When you say “I forgive you”, you actually also say at the same time, “You have done something wrong.” It also means that you no longer let yourself be defined by the evil that’s done to you, and that you indeed make the wrongdoers responsible for their own “salvation”. Forgiving someone doesn’t necessarily mean that he will repent. The wrongdoer can still be in denial about the evil he has done, but at least you no longer force yourself to wait for this repentance. In this sense, the power of forgiveness frees you from the power the evildoer has over you.

    So I agree with this:

    “But we must not forgive malice and allow it to be done to us over and over again. […] We can show them a better way, but it is their responsibility to do something with it, not ours.”

    I know it’s a cliche, nevertheless: Jesus forgives the sinner, not the sin.

    I disagree partly with this:

    “More, God taught him that he was not supposed to fix humanity, or even to forgive them. God wanted him to become his right hand in judging who is good and who is bad.”

    To forgive humanity is judging it at the same time. The resurrection means that God says “No!” to the sacrifice of Jesus. Jesus in the midst of his apostles, alive again, means that they are given a second chance. It’s an experience of forgiveness – Will they betray Jesus, and those in a similar position, a second time? Or will they (“Cain”) be able to bear the presence of “Abel” in their midst?

    So, the resurrection is an offer of forgiveness, it’s grace, it’s a gift. But it’s up to humanity to either accept it or not. It indeed is the responsibility of “Cain” (the psychopath in your story) to do something with that gift.

    The difference between men offering forgiveness and God is – from a believer’s point of view – that God’s patience is infinitely bigger than ours. Some evil is unforgivable by human standards. We can’t even begin to imagine how some evil could be restored. But Christians believe that there will be a world where God will be “all in all”, and where every “Cain” will be able to reconcile him with his particular “Abel”.

    3) Let me quote you again: “Still, to picture him as miraculously curing the sinners from their punishment, and even bring them back to life so they can learn God’s way, suggests a personality who saves the sinners from their punishment, not from their sins.”

    I’m not quite sure of this. Remember Jesus saying: “Go and sin no more…”

    4) One quote of you again: “Jesus argues that only the sinners are in true need of him, just like only the sick need a doctor. The good, the righteous do not need saving.”

    But who are the sinners, who are “the sick”? Humanity as a whole! We’re all “Cain” once in a while, and to different degrees, sure (the psychopath being in the darkest places). But Jesus reminds us not to surrender to the suggestions of the “devil” by saying: “No one is good—except God alone.” (Mark 10:18).

    5) One final quote of yours: “The psychopath I was involved with was the outcast of his village. When I became his champion, the one who would help him reach his ‘true’ potential as a human being – I had ‘seen’ a glimpse of his ‘golden heart’ – the whole village warned me, told me I was wasting my goodness. This made me angry with the villagers. They were heartless, prejudiced, unforgiving, envious and actively preventing someone from attaining a better life. I felt a better human than I thought they were. And yet now, I see they had perfect grounds to warn me and every reason to shun him.”

    I’d like to interpret this from the perspective of “mimetic rivalry”. The psychopath feels better than others, he looks down on the villagers. He even explains his own marginalization as “the villagers being envious of his exceptional persona.” The villagers, in turn, look down on the psychopath, blaming him for his own isolation while he is blaming them for isolating him (you know, like he says things like “I’m too great to be understood by such small-minded people etc.”).

    At first you sided with the psychopath (you imitated him against the villagers and felt “superior” to the villagers), next you sided with the villagers (you imitated them against the psychopath and maybe felt “superior” again).

    What I will say now is with great prudence, although it might come over quite hard: don’t you think that the evil the psychopath is spreading has won in this dynamic? Isn’t evil the idea that one can only maintain himself by affirming himself as “superior” to others? Exactly the idea the psychopath lives by?

    If you ask me if we can escape this dynamic in this world, I think the answer is “No”. Some evil cannot be restored. We can only acknowledge our own powerlessness, and see evil as evil. And maybe hope for an ultimate “Savior”… Maybe…

    N.B.: I think that accepting a factual Jesus has nothing to do with being an atheist or a believer. It has to do with accepting the results of historical research. Historians today generally accept the historicity of Jesus (of course the New Testament testifies of traditions of interpretation of this historical figure).

    • Hi Erik,

      In reply to your response

      1) “I think it remains equally possible to consider the story from the perspective of Jesus’ apostles. As I understand the Gospel stories, they are about their change, about something they have “learned”, brought about by the experience of the resurrection of Jesus.”

      Perfectly possible. I would not claim that my interpretation was intended to be interpreted that way. It is quite possible it was intended to relate the response and learning process with the apostles pov, thus the religious process. I cannot possibly relate to that as an atheist. Neither God, nor Jesus, nor the apostles are factual to me. I could only relate to the story in that I noticed that Jesus went through a psychopathic process of idealizing, devalueing and discarding. Any victim and survivor who went or is going through such a psychopathic process can identify with it. Meanwhile few people who haven’t can hardly relate to that, but they would relate to the impact it has on them when the survivor they know heals and ressurects out of the ashes. So the implications may differ greatly.

      2) Yes, I make the distinction because the forgiving that is often taught by Christians is about judging the ‘sin but not the sinner’. Jesus though eventually becomes someone who judges the sinner, not just the sin. He decides who goes to hell and who can enter heaven. He doesn’t judge people by their deeds anymore in order to forgive, but by their hearts. When you judge a person by their heart, forgiving just doesn’t come into the equasion anymore. I’ve letten go of all the bad deeds the ex-psychopath has done to me and others insofar I knew of it. I do not require any justice or apologies or repayments from him. I am at peace with what happened as it happened. But I judge him to be a malicious being who I would never abide near me again. This is a type of judgement I would never have dared to do ever before in my life. The whole process has changed me: I know evil from up close and personal now, in a manner I could never even have fathomed before. Nor do I think this type of judgement is evil: morally, functionally, nor even religiously. It all depends what we do with the judgement and what its purpose is.

      3) I’m not quite sure of this. Remember Jesus saying: “Go and sin no more…”

      I said it so often to the ex-psychopath… “Don’t do it anymore”. He did nevertheless. Neither Jesus, neither the apostles, nor the reader know whether these sinners sinned no more.

      It stems from a mind who expects that people will want to choose the right path if given the chance, that everyone in their heart and mind ultimately wish to be good and will grab the opportunity if presented ( That belief though is a dillusion). That same mind wishes to be the one who gives people that opportunity.

      5) “don’t you think that the evil the psychopath is spreading has won in this dynamic? Isn’t evil the idea that one can only maintain himself by affirming himself as “superior” to others? Exactly the idea the psychopath lives by?”

      No, I think this is somewhat of a straw man argument. The basis of a psychopath’s evil is their envy. The villagers did not envy him at all, they were just looking out after themselves and possible victims (me). If I understood them at the end it was because I realized there were years and plenty of reasons why they had given up on him and simply disbelieved him from ever becoming a better person.

      Instead it was somewhat narcistic of me to believe I would be the one who’d help him become a better person. The superiority I felt towards the villagers originally was rooted in an illusion and a belief of what my love could accomplish – save someone. But it had nothing to do with envy.

      I certainly envy nothing of the psychopath now. The only time I ever felt envy was at my second birthday, and I denounced the feeling the moment I felt it myself.

      I do not feel superior to anyone, not even the psychopath… I feel very different than him. I am very different than him. I am opposite to him. When I call him evil, I mean that he loves corrupting, betraying, tempting and destroying that is good in people. If empathic people endeavor to show others the way to how satisfying it can be to be kind, to give and to choose the morally right over the morally wrong, then psychopaths endeavor to show others the opposite away. The worst is that they do it by appealing to your empathy, to your kindness, forgiveness of mistakes, your non-judgement of their hearts, your love. And they love to inspire the worst feelings in you (something the psychopath never truly succeeded in me). In that way, they are indeed the personification of the concept of Lucifer; like him they do it to prove that nobody is different from them.

      Judging someone’s heart is not feeling superior to someone else. It’s a protective measure, a boundary against abuse and being used, based on intellectual knowledge… it has little to do with feelings at all.

      Your last argument just seems to misunderstand the nature of this type of judging. I can see how the ex-psychopath would see my judgement of him in this win-lose manner. And I know it is very hard to comprehend for anyone who has not first-hand experienced the psychopathic process. Plenty of people shake their heads at me when they learn I judge some people on their hearts based on the evidence, and with some of my friends it makes me sad. It is quite strange how they refuse to judge the ex as someone malicious, but at the same time think I’m straying for thinking I have the right to judge someone who has done the unimaginable to myself and others over and over. I do not need Jesus’ crucifixion to affirm this right for myself. But I know plenty of people who are thorn over their prior beliefs and the new learned necessity to judge who is safe and who is not. There are plenty of people like Jesus who were innocent and knew no evil, who ended up being metaphorically crucified by those they trusted the most.

      You do not have to do much with that judgement, except turn our back on the person without a harmful word or action. Less is more when it comes to speech and action towards psychopaths. I do not even have to expose them. I have learned that a complete neutral response just makes them expose themselves. When they remove the mask towards me, my almost non-response to it, makes bystanders look and respond to them by stepping away from them.

      This thinking goes very much against Jesus’ original teachings of turning the other cheek. But that same Jesus does not turn his other cheek anymore after the ressurection either.

      Competing with psychopaths or thinking in terms of winning or losing are all drives that are almost alien to me. The psychopath could never have won that game, because I never played it.

      N.B. I do acknowledge that historians recognize that Jesus may have been created based on historical figures. And I agree there. But they disagree who may be the most likely candidate. There is not factual evidence for an actual Jesus with either that name or even that exact life as told in the new testament.

      Thank you, Erik, for your reply and points though. 🙂

      • Fair enough, Jill :).

        Just this:

        1) “The villagers did not envy him…”

        I didn’t want to imply that you or the villagers were envious of him.

        Mimesis concerned a bit of narcissism, as you say, on your part (“I will save him”).

        2) “N.B. Historians recognize that Jesus may have been created based on historical figures. But they disagree who may be the most likely candidate. There is not factual evidence for an actual Jesus with either that name or even that exact life as told in the new testament.”

        I know about these arguments and about the historians (?) who make them. However, by way of analogy: it’s a bit like the creationist who argues that scientists are not quite sure of evolutionary theory. Of course, no historian accepts that the New Testament recounts “an exact life of Jesus”.

        I know of no serious historian today who doubts the existence of a historical Jesus.

        May I suggest the following links (you do understand Dutch?):

        http://skepp.be/nl/levensbeschouwing-evolutie/religie/de-historische-jezus-kunnen-we-er-iets-van-weten#.UXmZBEomN5I

        http://mainzerbeobachter.com/tag/john-p-meier/

        http://justicebeforecharity.org/historical_jesus.php

        http://www.americancatholic.org/Messenger/Dec1997/feature3.asp

        http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/838138.A_Marginal_Jew

        • 🙂 Eric,

          I know you did not imply envy. But envy and self-doubt is to me what often lies at the basis of feeling superior over another human being. The villager did not feel narcistic or superior to him, because they did not doubt themselves of his badness nor envied him. I do admit that I felt superior to the villagers. The reason for that was because from the start I always doubted whether I was doing the right thing by being with him. My intuition told me to stay far away from him, that he was very very dark, the first time I saw him walk by. I saw red flags and stuff that told me I might be making a very wrong decision. But he appealed to my empathy with a pity play that was too strong to overcome. I felt guilty if I rejected him. I had to rationalize my decision (when in doubt, be giving), and that is why I felt superior over the villagers.

          I am not in doubt whatsoever anymore of who and what type of person he is, how dangerous (I have every reason to fear for my life if I were to ever visit his village again), how destructive and how thoroughly rotten he is through and through. So, I do not need to rationalise anymore of why I reject him, and so no reason to feel superior to him. And while I have no doubt on my judgement nor on my right to judge, at the same time I’ve also have grown much humbler than before. This seems contradictory, but the source of the judgement is humility rather than superiority – the knowledge that I can only save myself, that I can only make myself do something, nobody else.

          Does that clarify it for you, more? 🙂

          Thanks for the links. I will read them later. Yes, I understand and read Dutch. It’s my mother language.

          I also thank you for the points you brought up. They are valid and reasonable questions. Skylar and I had a good discussion on some of these subjects during the editing process, and I tried to take them into consideration within the article before. I hope my further replies clarified what I mean. But sometimes language is too limited.

        • Thanks for the links again… interesting read. I knew the Pharisees bs Jesus debates were a later Christian invention and that the Pharisees were the popular Jewish scholars because of their humaneness and that the interpretations would have been very much alike. In fact the elitarian portrayal of the Pharisees in the bible would fit the true elitarian Jewish sect of the early 1st century much better.

        • Eric,
          I tried to read the links in English. They seemed contrary to Girard’s teachings, when the author talks about the cycles of violence no longer being relevant. In fact, the cycles seem more relevant than ever in my country as well as the one to the south. I don’t feel that I’ve really been convinced that the author has a good handle on who Jesus really was.

          Girard, on the other hand, describes a life story of Jesus as well as other sacrificial victims that are extremely familiar to victims of psychopaths. The innocent was chosen to be scapegoated and all our stories have the same elements.

          Psychopaths envy innocence and they despise weakness but they misinterpret those things. They mistake kindness for weakness and innocence for stupidity.

          Last of all I believe Jesus advised us to give the psychopath what ever he wanted because it would make him lose interest in it. Psychopaths are only interested in the things they have to steal, cheat, lie and murder to obtain. When we give them what they want with no emotion, we call it gray rock and it means that you never show the psychopath what you value. You show them a decoy instead. Because, they’ll bend over backwards trying to attain anything you tell them is your hearts desire.

          It isn’t necessarily dangerous to love a psychopath or to be kind to them, as long as you know what you are dealing with and what to expect. Very few people can handle that: Knowing that the psychopath is planning your murder and how he’ll get a way with it. He plans to destroy people who love him — always.

          Jesus tells us that we are not to value the things of this world. Mostly, I think, it’s because it distracts us from valuing our fellow man. And it attracts spaths who are always waiting to see what everyone else values, so they can start the game.

          • Sky, my view of what a psychopath/sociopath is boils down to part of the Human Condition. There have been, remain to be, and will always exist people who intend to damage with malice and deliberation. Whether it’s an expensive vehicle or genuine concern, spaths covet (aka: envy).

            The first exspath wanted complete control through intimidation. The steps he took to accomplish this became more and more extreme, over time. The second exspath wanted a cloak of respectability and to appear affluent and successful by taking what did not belong to him. Others that have floated through my lifetime envied other things, but on a similar level – that which they would never “own” was deliberately destroyed so that those who DID have what they coveted would appear as empty and superficial as they were, themselves.

            MY culpability in being targeted lies in my core-issues and lack of boundaries. My neediness compelled me to tolerate every manner of abuse because I was incapable of validating myself. These things are being altered, at long last. Step-by-step and inch-by-inch, I’m reconstructing my beliefs to embrace facts and anyone who presents a danger (toxicity) to me is OUT. 😀

          • Skylar,

            Yes, when I read the turn the other cheek now, it reminded me of greyrock. Just let a psychopath think they’ve won, and do not let them know they hurt you or what they can harm you. Although I sincerely disagree with inviting them in my home. I keep my “enemies” out of my life as much as I can.

            Eric,

            As for the judging, I do think it’s a language issue… What judging means to me is not the same to others. Often people regard judgement of someone’s heart as a way of putting value on a human life or with the intent to scapegoat, to escape their own responsibilities. The judgement I’m talking about in this article is not about scapegoating or putting value on someone’s life. I judge in order to know who is safe and trustworthy, and who is likely intent to harm me. I also judge to see how I should use my energy based on return. I don’t mean a return back to me necessarily, but in general.

            This ties in to the “who are the sick” question you asked. If by “everyone’s a sinner” you mean, “everyone makes mistakes”, I agree. We all need to learn, and that all of our life. But I answered this in the article itself by mentioning the examples of the pupils I teach.

            Teens are pupils who in lesser and bigger degree can behave quite sociopathic, even if temporarily. Now, I have a teen pupil in one of my classes at the moment who loves to disrupt classes severely and is extremely manipulative, including the charm, flattering, etc. He also vies for a lot of attention all the time. He absolutely negates any responsibility and in his counseling sessions he has tried to create strife and division amongst teachers, even though he’s 17. He’s not just a classic annoying teen. His case is quite severe and even counselors do not get through to him at all. Hopefully, it’ll ease with time as he becomes an adult, but it might just as well be the first signs of a permanent personality disorder.

            The class he’s in, is one that requires lots of attention… kids who each have their limits, and need a lot of guidance, but plenty are willing to work. So, they all need attention and energy and time from me. If I were to give all of my attention to the one who is so disruptive, I would neglect my duty to the other 15. More, it might be that my energy would be all for naught, since there is the possibility he might actually be a budding sociopath. I have limited time and energy, and I must use it wisely. As a consequence, I emotionally ignore him most of the time, that is I greyrock him and keep the most strict emotional boundaries around him. He only gets emotions from me when he’s behaving well. At the very least it enables me to use my energy for the 15 others who are willing to work and learn, and yet I also try to reinforce more social behaviour from him, and so do not completely give up on him. And sometimes, he’s being just such a nuisance that I tell him to stay in the hall, which he will try to avoid at all cost. It’s boring to him because he has no audience and other classmates to manipulate when he’s completely isolated. So, most of the time he’s managable and not able to disrupt my class much. Before I learned to judge, I would have tried to appeal to his responsibility, his intellect, his emotions… and I would have failed. Because I judge his intentions and know what he’s after, I have much better tools to deal with him and still be able to teach him as well as his peers what I’m required to teach. Do I want the love from these teens? No, I want to prepare them for life. That is the return, and I need to assess and judge a teen, in order to get a max return from all of them. Judging has made me overall a far better teacher than I was when I did not judge, including with the difficult teens.

          • Truthspeak,
            their envy and covetousness is almost comical in it’s extreme.
            I didn’t understand it at the time, but I remembered that we could never eat in a restaurant without the spath finishing his food at lightening speed and then sticking his fork into mine. He explained it by saying that growing up with 5 brothers, it became a forced habit to finish your food quickly or the seconds would be all gone. The truth was, he just couldn’t stand to see me eat because it made him envious — even though he had his own food and I had PAID for both!

            The only time I got to eat in peace was when I was eating my home cooked, strychnine-laced meals!!!!!!! LOL! Isn’t that what they call “peace at any price”?

  4. Hi Skylar,

    Just a short note: I referenced to the work of John Meier was to give an example of the historical critical research concerning Jesus. I don’t necessarily agree with his conclusions, although he’s done a tremendous job and isn’t just ventilating unbiased opinions.

    To Jill,

    Thanks for the example with your pupils. Makes sense!

  5. Jill, I read your article, again, and it’s simply priceless. Whether it’s Jesus, Ghandi, or the Man in the Moon, people do what they do because they can. Enablers are driven by fear and a “need” for acceptance. And, it simply is what it is.

    I can identify with the movement towards “forgiveness,” at long last. It’s over. It’s done. There is no such thing as “justice,” and I’ve come to accept that fact. No, I don’t “like” it, one tiny bit, but I cannot force it to exist or cause it to happen. Next step? Forgiveness of myself, my foibles, and my vulnerabilities AND, perhaps, the people who deliberately inflicted harm upon me for their own purposes and entertainment.

    I believe – in my heart of hearts – that my experiences were “required” of me. I don’t know why, and I cannot explain this feeling. But, I moved through my lifetime under a cloud of dysfunction and fear with nearly all decisions based upon fear and core-issues. Does that mean that the exspath(s) are not responsible for my experiences? Oh, hayell, NO – what the exspaths chose to do were of their own accord. Having typed that, my own fears and core-issues are directly involved in the choices that I made, personally.

    It’s a “good” day of enlightenment, here. This article speaks volumes of predatory human beings and their minions as part of the Human Condition and my role as a survivor in recovery. Excellent article.

  6. This was a good article, and i think you could extend it further in examining the Father of Jesus in the Old Testament (it gets confusing because some say YHVH IS Jesus, other’s that that is his father)

    What kind of father would insist on using his own child as a blood sacrifice to propitiate his need for “justice”?

    Anyway this is very pertinent to me AT THIS TIME
    I am not sure who it was in my family..mom or dad someone made sure i was indoctrinated very early
    even though they made sure to pretend we lived in a secular agnostic household. Chrstianity was used against me (the only Christian in the family) extensively

    I just had a pet pass after long illness
    but because of the life or death kind a thing it kicked in my PTSD, which meant back to fundamentalist Christianity i went…and that exacerbated my PTSD n-fold.went through several vicious cycles before i said THAT IS ENOUGH

    There is other evidence elsewhere that indicates that Christianity does indeed worsen PTSD in many people, and that make a weird kind of sense doesn’t it?

    Anyway the Christ motif, What better way to keep a scapegoat or victim paralyzed and powerless than to give them this kind of story to emulate…in essence telling them they are glorious and divine because they are chosen as the sacrifice, thus getting them to accept their own abuse?

    Haven’t scapegoated people from all lands taken to the story of Jesus as their hero?
    From saves to untouchables..isn’t that a double bind?

    It is very odd for me i MAY have been the only “normal” one in a family of psychopaths..all very high functioning parents worked in government , brother a doctor…and i was the scapegoat.

    (i am actually afraid to go for therapy because it gets on my record and could be used against me, yeah i have about zero trust for government)

    I guess it is like goldilocks and the three bears being too big the Divine Scapegoat through christianity and trying to be the good one i, you betray yourself and play their game
    Being too small, the bad one they say you are and feeling lost is also betraying yourself and playing their game

    Just be human, it’s just right

    • Dances with Rabbits,
      I’m so sorry about the passing of your pet. 🙁 Animals are so precious and such blessings while we have them, that it seems like a curse when they depart. Their little lives are too short, but we are lucky to experience their innocence in our lives.

      At first I didn’t understand some of your post about OT. Now I get it, you meant : Old Testament.

      It is interesting that the old testament portrayed God as being so vengeful. It seems like they were writing that suffering the consequence of their actions is unfair punishment. But nobody would write about it that way, if they were talking about electricity, right? I mean, if you stick your finger in a light socket, you get shocked and you really can’t blame the laws of nature. But we all know what kind of person blames others for the consequences of their own actions: dysfunctional people.

      So I think that the old testament was really not describing God, so much as it was describing the way people thought and believed. Many of the stories describe really dysfunctional behavior. Starting with Adam and Eve (the original blame shifters), then Cain (he was so envious that he killed his brother), Abraham (who was going to scapegoat Issac) Issac, (who was too lazy to get his own wife), Jacob (who stole his brother’s inheritance)… it just goes on and on.

      Then the new Testament turns things around and instead of talking about punishment for sins, begins to talk about rewards for loving your neighbor and about forgiveness. It’s like the other side of the coin.

      I no longer read the stories of the bible as though they are literal. Instead I look at them for the symbolism and the patterns of human behavior that they portray. They make much more sense to me that way.

      If fundamentalist Christianity is offensive to you, there are other perspectives that may offer more comfort to you. The Native Americans called God, “The Great Spirit” and I think that describes my experience of God pretty well. There is a spirit in all living things and collectively, when united, it can be described as the source of a great power that we all have access to. When you experience love, like you did for your pet, that is one of the most powerful and moving manifestations of the Great Spirit. That’s why it’s so painful when that connection to a loved one disappears from our lives.

      It’s sad that some people only experienced God as a vengeful and punishing God. But those stories in the old testament, juxtaposed with the stories in the new testament are important for that very reason, because they do explain how perspective changes perception.

      The best part, IMO, about Jill’s interpretation of Jesus’ life is how she describes his metamorphoses due to his painful experience being scapegoated, and becomes a judge of human nature. I can sooooo relate.

      • Hi skylar..I don’t know how to use these particular html tags
        but I am gonna give it a shot

        I am afraid this is gonna be too long

        I’m so sorry about the passing of your pet. 🙁 Animals are so precious and such blessings while we have them, that it seems like a curse when they depart. Their little lives are too short, but we are lucky to experience their innocence in our lives.

        Thanks for that
        yes i am quite the animal freak, having loved them since childhood .This little guy was the apple of my eye, I know his spirit is still around me, but it is still hard..i did not want to go into the details of his passing.

        I was trying to illustrate a sacrificial cycle of trauma .(apparently not very well) that can be debilitating.

        I believe the cycle is tool used with deliberation and runs throughout western civilization.
        ((BTWthey have done studies that suggest that Christianity does indeed worsen PTSD))
        I am going to talk about my particular situation (which I had not wanted to bring up)then the universal as I see it.

        Particular:
        number of years ago i showed up at an animal rescue to snuggle animals and give them energy (Reiki).

        I got roped into cleaning cages for the woman running the rescue after some of her volunteers quit. We are talking heavy labor cleaning her entire barn by myself…
        and the dynamics feel exactly like dealing with my mother,but i stick with it because i love the animals, and am worried about what will happen to them and the owner. Many of these animals are sick and dying, or have been abused.
        At one point i was doing a few days a week for the owner and it was too much…tried to recruit volunteers for her none of them were good enough, then she complains about not having enough volunteers and i am taking up the slack…any objections are met with ,”how do you think i feel”..or “how can you say that ,look at all i do”

        when i started getting sick i had to cut back …
        explained to the other woman i volunteer with that the situation is so reminiscent of childhood that it is triggering to me, and all she can say is..”You have to keep coming for my sake”.
        Then she disparages me when i do get emotional and freak.
        Feels much like the abusive family i came from.

        So when this gets concatenated with the pressure of having an animal ill, and i am told to “suck it up” we have all had animals ill, and expected to be a good little soldier and put everybody else’s needs above my own…and i turn to Christianity for solace, and get the same kinda message
        “What YOU see, think and feel doesn’t matter…what GOD says, that is what matters…focus on that.”

        My perceptions and abilities devalued, and objections met with indignation and scorn.

        There are spiritual energy dynamics that are going on that i am not going to go into…

        Universal
        Warrior cult expects warriors to sacrifice themselves for the glory of it…devalues women and children as property. “Truth” comes from external authority

        “god” is a self procreating (apart from the female aka the unborn) transcendent male entity, the archetype for the FATHER.

        WOMEN are viewed as “other” , sinful, not acceptable and lower than men..as representatives of the natural world to be dominated and subdued.

        Truth or Dare by Starhawk, gets into some interesting dynamics of a transcendent father god used by warriors of middle east culture to DOMINATE and subdue others as scapegoat, and the immanent god/goddess ideas of a more democratic culture where sexes are egalitarian. The goddess in particular became the scapegoat. The goddess is often referred to as “Sophia” in judaism in proverbs, and Jesus is sometimes seen as her son.
        (many people believe these myths are retellings of deeply ancient goddess myths where it was actually the goddess/priestess that hung on the tree)

        It just occurred to me Skylar..your mom was the NPD right? You went into the military as a Warrior, good little sacrifice?
        Did you ever think that you were the carrier of the rejected male shadow energy for your mom? You representing the male she hated were the object of her special scorn?
        Please forgive me if i am off base.

        There is something called the Scapegoat complex
        just another way of looking at it
        http://www.midline.net/nfp/PDFs/Callan.pdf

        Fundie Christianity is particularly vicious for people who have been the scapegoated because it holds them accountable and responsible for their own abuse.

        They are inherently sinful and should not complain when abused because God spared not his own son..etc i could go on ad nauseum

        At first I didn’t understand some of your post about OT. Now I get it, you meant : Old Testament.
        It is interesting that the old testament portrayed God as being so vengeful. It seems like they were writing that suffering the consequence of their actions is unfair punishment. But nobody would write about it that way, if they were talking about electricity, right? I mean, if you stick your finger in a light socket, you get shocked and you really can’t blame the laws of nature. But we all know what kind of person blames others for the consequences of their own actions: dysfunctional people

        OT is law of Karma, the psychopaths rule, NT is Law of Grace

        Dysfunctionality is part of the human condition. We are all selfish to degrees and blame others, this is ubiquitous. For example, i know i was going through emotional turmoil at the time my beloved pet came down with cancer..the vet thought it was an abscess and i took Bun to another vet who was an expert and had written books on specialty veterinary medicine..because i was afraid it was cancer.

        Willynilly this expert looked at it and said it was not serious, operated on it right then and there,and when it came back 6 months later we had to have a surgical specialist remove it, not knowing it was cancer, trusting the “experts”…and after the fact were told, BTW it is cancer, and by operating on it we have made it come back twice as fast…that and the fact that this expert surgeon missed a tumor. Won’t go into the rest of the story except to say my pet died.

        Do i blame the surgeons and vets?
        No i blame myself because i should have known better.
        To be told by ‘spiritual’ (actually just religious)people that my emotional turmoil caused the cancer (both Christian and new agers)
        It doesn’t help

        So I think that the old testament was really not describing God, so much as it was describing the way people thought and believed. Many of the stories describe really dysfunctional behavior. Starting with Adam and Eve (the original blame shifters), then Cain (he was so envious that he killed his brother), Abraham (who was going to scapegoat Issac) Issac, (who was too lazy to get his own wife), Jacob (who stole his brother’s inheritance)… it just goes on and on.
        Then the new Testament turns things around and instead of talking about punishment for sins, begins to talk about rewards for loving your neighbor and about forgiveness. It’s like the other side of the coin.
        I no longer read the stories of the bible as though they are literal. Instead I look at them for the symbolism and the patterns of human behavior that they portray. They make much more sense.

        “God” is the archetypal father…the root of judaeo-christian mythology

        Did you notice that this particular god LIED to Adam and eve?
        What the hell kind of psycho freak leaves his children in a garden with a murderer.(the talking snake)

        I kinda believe the snake represents the reptilian primal part of the brain..the tree is the body.etc
        there are many ways to see it all equally valid.

        If fundamentalist Christianity is offensive to you, there are other perspectives that may offer more comfort to you. The Native Americans called God, “The Great Spirit” and I think that describes my experience of God pretty well. There is a spirit in all living things and collectively, when united, it can be described as the source of a great power that we all have access to. When you experience love, like you did for your pet, that is one of the most powerful and moving manifestations of the Great Spirit. That’s why it’s so painful when that connection to a loved one disappears from our lives.
        It’s sad that some people only experienced God as a vengeful and punishing God. But those stories in the old testament, juxtaposed with the stories in the new testament are important for that very reason, because they do explain how perspective changes perception.

        Your parents have a very big hand in shaping how you view the world. In western culture the Father usually shapes children’s views of God and the “world out there”. Interestingly God is like a psychopath..this is the God worshipped by patriarchy…the penultimate vengeful tantrum throwing male.
        Don’t believe me?
        Look at your typical CEO.

        my default setting is nature spirituality. Because of the overwhelm of the PTSD..i ran for the familiar , Fundamentalist Christianity which exacerbated my condition in a vicious cycle.

        I wasn’t originally going to go into the details of what was going on, i wanted to highlight a mechanism that i believe is used consciously or unconsciously to control people.

        Christianity is a transcendent, power over type of religion with a father god somewhat removed. Nature spirituality is the spirituality of god immanent here right now in the bodies of people and the animals.

        Judaism, Islam and Christianity in particular view nature spirituality as SATANIC. (just another way to see it:Azazel the middle eastern nature god is the scapegoat sent into the desert…he represents unruly nature)

        It is my opinion that this particular archetypal story has been used to get people to distrust their own thoughts, feelings and perceptions and to rely on “experts” instead, whether that be religious, spiritual(not same as religious), Knowledge, Judging right and wrong, Mental Health (the new religion), Military security, Government leadership etc..

        The best part, IMO, about Jill’s interpretation of Jesus’ life is how she describes his metamorphoses due to his painful experience being scapegoated, and becomes a judge of human nature. I can sooooo relate.
        skylar

        Yes i agree she had an an awesome interpretation. I am NOT trying to invalidate what she is saying in any way just expand on it.
        You could say the OT god is men’s IDOL, and the God of the NT she is illustrating is the real deal.

        Paul said in one of his epistles..”Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? ”

        Sorry for the length of this..

        • Skylar? you wrote…………

          “Do i blame the surgeons and vets?
          No i blame myself because i should have known better.
          To be told by ‘spiritual’ (actually just religious)people that my emotional turmoil caused the cancer (both Christian and new agers)
          It doesn’t help”

          I don’t blame YOU! How could YOU know better? You are not a vet, doctor, etc and only had the advise of veterinary doctors to go on. you did what you thought was best given their advise. I blame them.
          I also blame the Spaths to a very certain strong degree because they PREY on our weaknesses and vulnerabilities. They are in a position of advantage because of that. The perp, criminal, murderer always has the advantage over the victim because they know what they are going to do and therefore have the element of surprise on their side. That is one reason, in some cases, even if you carry a gun for self protection, they can plan around they and ambush you. Wait for situations where you are not going to be able to have access to your gun quickly enough to defend yourself, etc.

    • Hi DanceswithRabbits,

      I feel your loss and grief that your pet has passed on. I believe fully and absolutely that death is a transition, and our beloved animal friends are only a feeling away, and you’ll be reunited in time. I’ve had some extraordinary experiences with my own cherished animal friends and I hope it’s a little bit of comfort to share my feelings with you that your friend is still very much alive, but in a spirit body and always close to your heart. Love – and life – doesn’t end with death, never did. I have been reading the most fantastic book about love, grief, the afterlife, and the authors are very much animal lovers and share their experiences about their continued contact with their precious four-legged friends, who are also the first to greet us when we transition. Just a few days ago one of my animal friends made contact with me, an experience that’s hard for me to describe but it was quite real. Even though I know it’s not the same because they aren’t here as they once were, it doesn’t mean they’ve gone forever or disappeared because they haven’t. You are probably visiting one another in your dreams too 🙂

      • Hi Ancient Heart,
        I struggle with trusting my own experience over what i have been taught..i am not just an animal lover but a true animal freak..so from one animal love to another… am sorry you lost your baby, not sure when it was but still they are the BEST.

        I wasn’t really writing the OP to focus on my pet but to illustrate a mechanism..but since we are on the subject.

        yes, i have had many supernatural experiences with my animals…i tend to get signs before and after their passing.

        This particular rabbit was the reincarnation of a rescue bunny. A few months after he died , husband had a dream about him and we “found” him the next day….i was so nuts about him i used to introduce him to people as “god” or “the center of the universe”. LOL

        I know he hasn’t disappeared…(and this is where it is hard because i have been taught so consistently to distrust myself)
        Over the last 5-6 years not sure what is going on but second sight (precog), and spirit sight (seeing spirits) are starting to come in very strongly..i keep telling myself it is my eyes playing tricks on me. (i am willing to bet this is why my mom disparaged her mother for being so “strange”)

        I have NO CLUE how to train this or even if it is advisable.

        BTW for those of you reading this..if you have suffered trauma realize there are gifts you may have been given. For some, it is spiritual/energy awareness for others like the original article writer insight and wisom, and for others the gift of healing.
        You have taken the bad now accept the good.

        Anyway, Ancient heart, sometime we might have to compare notes.

        Hugs, Dances

      • Listen Ancient Heart..
        Did you ever get the book “Animal Reincarnation” by Brent Atwater?
        I just ran into it this last week and picked it up because my experience (like feeling energy) corroborated some of the points she was making in her book..and i thought it would be great to have someone give me pointers..
        So far the book is lovely, and helpful.

        If you are ever in the mood to share experiences let me know..
        Dances

        • Hi Danceswithrabbits, yes I’d love to share experiences. I haven’t read the animal reincarnation book you mentioned. I’ve been very much immersed in a book which discusses the afterlife, called The Risen, which I cannot recommend highly enough for anyone grieving loss of any nature.

          My feelings about the possibility of reincarnation have changed to reflect my new understanding, which is that we each have one physical, material life, all of us – including animals. What may appear to be reincarnation, such as meeting another animal with similar or identical appearance and behavior, could be the spirit of a deceased animal who is using another animal as a medium or channel in order to connect with their beloved human in some way they can hopefully pick up or sense in some way.

          And yes, feelings! When you FEEL your fur baby, he or she is near! Love knows no distance, love is vibration, and I have been reading a book called “The Risen” whose authors have been helping me learn “how it all works” as far as they’ve been able to communicate and learn themselves.

          The authors of The Risen are devoted animal lovers, and there are some extraordinary experiences they have had with the passing of their kitties into the next realm. Their experiences have opened up my insights so much more as to the power of love, the eternal bond between us and our loved ones, and what is possible between realms.

          Only days after I purchased The Risen book and began reading, a cherished friend of mine who shared my love and devotion to horses and owned and rescued many herself, tragically passed away of cancer in December 2012. Her husband did not share her passion, and after she passed he gave away several of her horses. One of her horses “appeared” near my location, having been given away again and winding up in the “care” of someone who has no business having animals whatsoever. I recognized the horse and was stunned at the coincidence. It was no coincidence! My deceased friend found a way to put one of her horses in my vicinity to look after him!

          After I recognized my friend’s horse, I could feel my deceased friend’s energy so strongly for at least 2 or 3 days. I KNOW she had something to do with this horse turning up near where I can look after his well-being. This just took place recently.

          Another recent experience: psychopaths continue to target me and my animals, and have for years. The situation is too lengthy to describe here, however one of my horses contacted me – I “heard” words and she sent me a message which I feel is best not disclosed but the message had to do with her status, and other horses as well. I was impulsed to take action as led by her.

          This particular horse and I are one in a most powerful way, I merge with the spirits of animals and some of them I merge with far more intensely than others. She was not only sending me a message but guiding me in an activity.

          Just prior to her message and the above event, I had been feeling her and thinking about her a great deal.

          I’ve had many experiences. Animals are much, much closer to primordial creation, or original Spirit, and humans are and have always been incomprehensibly cruel to animals because they envy that connection.

          I consider the majority of “humanity” to be fundamentally predatory, infantile, selfish and ignorant. I keep mostly to myself, it’s a much more peaceful and serene material existence. Through this nightmare with “pure” psychopaths, I realized that most humans have plenty of psychopathic characteristics, and their focusing on the most despicable of them just gives “lesser” psychopaths an out, if you will.

  7. Danceswithrabbits, I offer my deepest condolences on the loss of your beloved pet. Owning a pet comes with specific lessons for human beings, IMHO. Pets love their owners regardless of whether their owners are blind, scarred, unkempt, obese, bald, schizophrenic, or corporate CEO’s. They offer what humans can only aspire to: unconditional love. Human beings may pretend that they understand this concept, but we really cannot experience this in its truest form. We human beings live in our pasts, presents, and futures, and RARELY do we even live in the present – we are constantly worried or fretting over what has already happened and what we believe likely to happen, in the future. Pets have “memories,” but not in the same way that we experience them. They live in “The Now.” That’s why a dog will greet their owner with the same enthusiasm whether the owner has been gone for 4 minutes, 4 hours, or 4 days – time doesn’t factor, just the absence of the focus of their love.

    With regard to avoiding counseling due to it being “on record,” I would gently suggest that you consider setting that thought aside. PSTD, traumas, and the lot provide hundreds of excuses to avoid – I have been assessed with Avoidance Disorder, and I’m working on this, now. I didn’t want to tell ANYONE about my traumas because, as a child, my traumas were dismissed, minimized, and left invalidated. Therefore, I was invalidated, as a human being. If I told someone about my feelings, thoughts, beliefs, and experiences, I would be judged as unworthy, undeserving, un-loveable, and un-everything. I didn’t want to risk that, again, but I was in a whole-self tailspin that I did not have the knowledge or insight to pull out of.

    When I began counseling a while back, I had the idea that it was to help me process the carnages that I experienced as a result of marrying a human predator. Someone took from me, destroyed my life, and left me sick and abandoned. So, this was the primary catalyst for me. As I processed what “he did to me,” I began work on HOW I had been so easily targeted by a predator. Today, the work that I’m engaging in is demanding, challenging, grievous, and painful, but the results of this work are incalculable.

    I view counseling therapy as an assist to recovery similar to how a medical examiner determines a cause of death. I was metaphorically murdered as a result of my second marriage. Step by step and one personal epiphany after another, I was able to understand that, indeed, the exspath is a very, very evil and malicious individual, but MY core-issues and trauma-bonds were the exact vulnerabilities that he was so easily able to hone in on with such surgical precision. It ceased being all about what HE did, and became all about what my core-issues and faulty beliefs were. In this current work, I am dissecting my lifetime traumas, identifying how those events created specific issues and faulty beliefs, and doing the work to alter those deadly factors so that I won’t be such an easy target, ever again. And, my perception of Christianity played a tremendous factor in how easily and how thoroughly I was dismantled, as well. Shame-core issues created fear-based thinking for me, on every level. And, this HAD to stop before I could begin rebuilding myself as an emotionally strong and healthy individual.

    Today, I don’t believe, under any circumstances, that Great Creator “wants” me to give a toxic person the “benefit of the doubt” OR a “second chance.” My mandate is to live truthfully, honestly, and shed resentment, hatred, and anger so that I can WALK AWAY from predatory people without feeling guilt or shame. And, this is requiring commitment and dedication, on my part. I’ve just begun my trek on my Healing Path, and I’ll be walking this road for the rest of my life. And, I can type that I would MUCH rather be in recovery than spinning in that vortex of anguish that I was caught in.

    Sorry for the lengthy response. Just my 2 cents thrown in there.

    • Hi Trusthspeak..

      Thanks
      rest assured my animals are treated like royalty, and are loved dearly.

      The counseling,I tried recently on two separate occasions . Once with a counselor who was a New age practitioner, she proceeded to blame me for my own emotional turmoil and said I needed to sit with it and just feel the pain…and that I was causing my pets sickness.
      The other time I sought counseling It was with a Christian and I was told that my emotional turmoil had caused my pet’s cancer.

      What kind of therapist are you seeing?

      I am asking because I have known people that have been in therapy for 20 years and never got any better.

      The government issue is a valid one.
      Once something like PTSD is on your records, you can be seized and held as a danger to self and/or society regardless of actual circumstances or facts. In fact did you realize that the government now has the authority to assassinate US citizens by presidential fiat?

      Given the intrusive security state arising in the US in the last decade, and the admitted government snooping into your phone calls and e-mails just this week, I believe caution is called for.

      Especially knowing that the people who raised me worked for the government…my parents were NPDs.. .

      Hugs, Dances

      • Damces with rabbits,

        You said “Once something like PTSD is on your records, you can be seized and held as a danger to self and/or society regardless of actual circumstances or facts”

        As a mental health professional and having worked with patients who had to be “certified” as a danger to themselves or others, the aboev statement you made is FALSE. Anyone who is “acting out dangerously” can be held for 72 hours ONLY and then must goo before a judge to determine if they are THEN a continuing danger to themselves or others (making threats or threats of self harm) if not, then they must be released immediately.

        Thhink about it, our city streets are full of homeless mentally ill and “labeled” patients who as long as they are not an IMMEDIATE DANGER to themselves or others are allowed to roam at will since Pres. Reagan released them from supervised living facilities “for their own good.”

        PTSD is NOT a disorder that if the person is not ACTIVELY dangerous that labels one as able to be picked up and imprisoned in a mental institution without recourse.

      • PS. I have known patients with cancer who died too, but that doesn’t mean you avoid doctors or treatments because some cancer patients die anyway….sure not ALL mentally ill people “get better” but that doesn’t mean that therapy is worthless.

  8. Dances with rabbits,. you said…

    “((BTWthey have done studies that suggest that Christianity does indeed worsen PTSD))
    I am going to talk about my particular situation (which I had not wanted to bring up)then the universal as I see it”

    I would like to see your source for the “they” in the ” have done a study.” that Christianity worsens PTSD. I am a Christian and frankly my faith was the only thing that kept me semi sane and helped to support me in the darkest days.

    Statistics can be skewed….On average a man with 1 foot on a red hot stove and the other on an ice block is “comfortable.” And on the internet you can find all kinds of “junk science” so I would like to see a legitimate study concluding this.

    • Sorry you seem to be offended. I was a Christian for 35 years and most of that time Christianity was used to make me a more compliant victim by my parents..the raging emotionally and physically abusive father and a mother who insisted I was to blame for what he was doing to me.

      Yes Stats can be skewed, certainly know that..since I have worked in research and have degrees in mathematics and physics..It was a British news article, I will try to find it.

      • Dances with rabbits, I too was raised in an abusive “christian” home….but I realized eventually that THAT IS NOT WHAT THE BIBLE TEACHES, what it does teach is “beware of false prophets….wolves in sheep’s clothing” and that sounds like your “christian” family and church.

        Many people pretend to be “holy” and are in fact ravening wolves, that is why Jesus was crucified because he confronted the Jewish sects that were only PRETENDING to be religous, in fact they were anything but…they hired false witnesses against Him.

        I finally made the connection between Jesus and LOVE not criticism or hate, not abuse, and saw where my mother and others had twisted the word to use to control others. But THAT is NOT Christianity.

        If you lost your faith, I am sorry, but those evil people who pretend to be Christians and loving are anything but. So the problem is not “Christianity” but it is about EVIL people who use God’s word for oppression, not to uplift.

        • You are right and i apologize, i was out of line..I am pretty angry with God right now
          He has given me some very close to miraculous answers to my prayers..and when i really need him he lets me down..This was a completely innocent li guy who never hurt a soul,(and yes i actually took him to the church to be prayed over)

          I am not understanding WHY the innocent creatures and people suffer the most while the evil go SCOTT FREE.
          My own parents do everything for appearance, taking in foster kids while using me as their whipping post, calling me selfish for even having any normal needs like love or boundaries. I was told i was unclean, bad, evil, just for crying or objecting to being treated like the family trash can.
          My parents are pillars of the community, respected and given kudos for being so “good”..I just realized a few days ago that my own brother is actually an s-path.
          There were red flags but it didn’t really strike me until a few days ago.
          None of the people in my family were Christian, they gave it lip service, but used it against me too. My father actually made fun of me for my faith, and for wanting to remain chaste.(btw both of my parents worked for federal government)

          So yeah i have been through it too..why does it have to hurt so much?
          why do they get away with it and we are left broken and bleeding..does that seem fair?
          Honestly it was like my family were trying to literally destroy my soul..i was born with a number of gifts that i have been too broken to use, meanwhile my parents and brother thrive.

          I don’t know about you but i DO NOT like this world very much.
          Sorry for offending you, i would delete the offending bits but for some reason the board won’t let me edit my posts.

          • Danceswithrabbits,
            Im sorry for the loss of your pet. I know how it feels after loosing many pets during my lifetime. I don’t know where I would be in my life and in this world if it wasn’t for the four legged friends that have been by my side through thick and thin.
            I don’t understand much of this Spath phenomenon. I know I feel so betrayed and bewildered that this person has deceived me in the way he has. And, it’s not fair, I agree. As they say, Life is not fair. That doesn’t make things feel any better though.

          • Dances,

            Looking back I see a lot of things about my walk with God that I did not see when I was “blinded” by the teachings of the sect I grew up in.

            The story of king david and king saul, saul was trying to kill david and david had to go into the wilderness for several years and hide out. Now God COULD have kept david safe by stopping Saul from trying to kill David but THERE WAS A LESSON IN THE WILDERNESS FOR DAVID that he needed to learn.

            God promises us that “vengence is mine saith the lord” and also “ALL things work together for good to those that love the Lord.” God WILL repay everyone according to their deeds. Yes, sometimes the innocent suffer, but God also promises that he will not put more on us than we can bear. Sometimes ALL we can bear but never NEVER MORE.

            Think about this, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, God knew that Abraham would do it, but God wanted ABRAHAM TO KNOW he would.

            Jesus was the ultimate innocent sacrificial lamb and was crucified. All the apostles but John were murdered or executed…so being close to God does not mean we will never “suffer” and though he does send the rain on the just and the unjust, believe me, THEY WILL meet a JUST GOD in the end.

            Life isn’t fair as you said above, but we need to keep the goal in mind. God will never do anything that is bad for us.

            I don’t know what I need. I used to pray for this or that to happen, pray for Patrick to get out on parole and when he didn’t that first time I was crushed, but in the end, my answer to my prayer was “NO, that is not good for you, I know you want it but he will kill you if he gets out so I will keep himin prison”

            I had to flee, just like David did and believe me there were many lessons for me in the “wilderness” and pain, trail and tribulation, I felt like Job must have felt as he lay t here scraping the scabs on his body with a broken piece of pottery.

            I also see how “losses” in my life that devastated me turned out in the end to be blessings in disguise later. So don’t look at this as a loss, look at it as a LESSON. So learn the lesson, and thank God you survived it. God bless.

  9. Truthy, your idea about doing an “autopsy” on a relationshit is exactly right on in my opinion. After my “divorce from hades” back in 1980, I had to do an “autopsy” on what went wrong. I realize now I had PTSD then, but at the time I didn’t know what was going on only that I couldn’t focus etc. with Therapy I managed to process it and do the autopsy. With my son Patrick there is also that ongoing “autopsy” of why I let him con me for so long.

    The medical and health i ssues PTSD and chronic stress cause, which include death of brain cells afflict us considerably, and it behooves us to lower our stress and therapy will usually do that, and give us the tool belt to heal ourselves. We may never be “the same” but that doesn’t mean we can’t be “okay.” Just different.

    I continue to work on my healing because healing is not a “destination” but a “journey” and as long as we live we should grow and mature and find acceptance and peace. It is called “life.”

    Many people function under “laws” or “rules” that are not correct, like for example “there are two (valid) sides to every story.” NOT TRUE. “It takes two to fight” also NOT TRUE, “there is good down in everyone” also NOT TRUE, there are people who are EVIL and you cannot reason with these people or love them or support them enough to make them quit hurting you. The only option we have is No contact to protect ourselves.

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