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Revenge on a Psychopath — 213 Comments

  1. Slim, the most I hoped for was that it would slither back under it’s rock! But it does bring memories back….ones I thought I had done with. I thought I had reached the nirvana of indifference. Oh I love that phrase….thanks Joyce. I’ve coined it many times.
    An old girlfriend of spath managed to get hold of me yesterday and was blabbing on about his damaged childhood and I just had to intervene and say No!! The world is a better place without him. Truly. I had my fair share of stalking. He turned up at my school one day and parked behind my car. The usual rubbish followed; he couldn’t live without me and bla bla. I managed to get him to leave by threatening him with the police but he was very persistent and I always felt I had to look over my shoulder. Now I don’t. And it is a weird feeling.
    I hope you can find peace Slim. Thank you for your words of wisdom. it really helps me to sort the wheat from the chaff. To see this for what it is. A semi re-awakening but ultimately an end to a nightmare that, at certain points in my life, I thought would never really be over.
    Good luck with everything my dear

  2. Strongawoman,
    it’s good to see you again and it’s good to hear that the nightmare came to an end.
    For myself, I’m happy for you. Unlike Truthy and Oxy, I’ve never experienced the death of a spath. It would seem like it would be a happy occasion, yet I know that spaths never leave any happiness in their wake, so even their demise (which we had longed for) brings more sadness.

    Something Truthy wrote to you just happened to create an awakening, an AHA! moment for me.

    Truthy said that she grieved for what could have been. I remember when I left my spath, that is the only thing that I grieved: what could have/ should have/ might have been. Because I knew that the entire 25 years was a lie, I couldn’t grieve what HAD been, or what I had lost. Nothing was real. Yet in my mind I still saw the spath as having the POTENTIAL to be what he represented himself as. He really was capable of so much. And he was capable of acting kind and loving.

    Well, I’m currently helping someone heal from her spath attack and I showed her your comment as well as the responses. When she read Truthy’s response, she said, “That’s the last thing the spath said to me.”

    She had known that the spath was going to leave her, for over a year. About a week before he dumped her, she texted him, “Do you miss me?” He delayed answering her and finally replied, “yes”. Then, when he dumped her, she texted him, “Why did you say you missed me if you were planning on leaving me?” He texted her: “I missed what could have been.”

    Previously,I had imagined that this common theme, of missing what might have been, was a natural result of being with the spath and seeing the mask come off. Now, I’m thinking that the spaths actually UNDERSTAND that we will miss “what might have been”, they UNDERSTAND the grieving for what they represented themselves to be and what they “took away.” The fact that her spath, who isn’t very smart, used those words, has given me a little more insight into their minds.

    On that note, I propose that we refuse to grieve “what might have been” because as long as we do we are still doing/reacting as they wanted us to. This spath’s words tell me what is a trick and manipulation of our emotions. His texted words reinforce the idea that we must not give them any emotions, not even when they are dead. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t give them compassion for being the evil worms that they are, but I would say that we shouldn’t give their MASKS any emotions. The unmasked infant/fetus/worm deserves compassion for what it is, but the mask, itself, is only a tool for manipulating our emotions so it deserves no grieving.

    I know that we are only human and will have natural reactions to the death of a pathetic human being. Nothing I say will change that. Still, knowing the truth, knowing that our emotions are being manipulated even after their death, it’s worth something.

    • Hello Skylar, it’s good to hear from you. I hear what you are saying loud and clear and I am working on it.
      One of spaths favourite sayings, when I wouldn’t go back to him, or usually if I ignored him was “It’s your loss.” I have worked so hard on negating the existence of this thing for a long time. For over two years I have maintained NC and I have rejected the feelings and emotions I wanted to attach to him and recognised them as my own, not his. I think what helped me the most was acknowledging that I did love him, despite “him” being a lie. The realisation, and believe me it took me a long time, that he never loved me and couldn’t love me is what ultimately gave me the power to walk away for good. I refused to entertain thoughts of regret and would call out “No!” when I began to ruminate. I’ve done a lot of talking to myself over the past few years. Positive self talk some might call it but essentially it’s talking myself out of feeling something for someone who was real or sincere or loving or caring. I feel I have come full circle in a way and this event is just a small blip. I think my over riding feeling is relief but there are a few emotions that are still catching me out. Watch word of the day has to be manipulation. Thanks Sky

    • Sky, sadly, your friend’s question to the spath asking if he missed her left her open for whatever she felt after his response. And, his response was, in no way, based upon truth or facts, whatsoever. There’s what was, and then there was what “should” have been. Neither cross paths in any typical setting whether there’s spathy involvement, or not.

      It is a disservice to ignore grief, whether it’s based upon an illusion, or the loss of something tangible. Loss is loss. A person whose beloved spouse experiences the loss of that spouse in a sudden, unforeseen accident, will also grieve “what should have been.” They had anticipated growing old with that partner and companion, and to have someone to support, and to be supported by. Now, that person is gone, and they are left with the rest of their life without that partner and companion. The loss is just as keen and grievous as the illusions that survivors were promised by spaths. The only difference is that there’s no real “closure” when we extract ourselves from a spath – there’s no funeral, no gatherings of friends/neighbors/family to console us in our loss, no outpouring of compassion or empathy, and no final “goodbyes.” There’s just bewilderment and people saying, “Well, you SHOULD have KNOWN…….” There’s no healthy or normal processing of the tremendous losses that spaths cause.

      Oddly, the same goes forth with addictions – an addict of any sort needs to grieve the “loss” of whatever it is that they were addicted to in order to move forward. Whether it was cocaine, tobacco, or gambling, it was vitally important to the addict, and it’s a very healthy thing to recognize that loss, feel the grief, and move forward through the process to acceptance.

      SO, I believe that the post mortem grieving for what “should have been” is 100% normal, in every respect. Sure, I felt some sense of satisfaction when the first abusive exspath died, but I also grieved because I had truly loved what he “should” have been, and never was.

      What I’ve learned about myself in these past 3 years of counseling therapy, recovery, and healing is that I ignored my own emotions, feelings, and observations as per my family dysfunction. It’s “okay” to feel sadness and loss, even if that sadness and loss is based upon an illusion. By processing those very real emotions, they get out of my system and I’m able to replace the space with positive affirmations and calm. I never knew that this was an option, and it’s only been as a result of the second exspath leaving that I learned this as a fact. I’ve learned how to validate myself and approve of myself well enough so that my feelings – my emotions – can be “okay” and that they can be integrated with my “practical mind” for a better sense of calm. More calm for me means less anxiety. And, I’m all about that! LOL

      • To clarify…..”feeling” is “normal,” and “feeling” a sadness, for whatever reason, is acceptable for me, personally. My entire lifetime has been spent stuffing down my emotions, taking it on the proverbial chin, and acting as if I were made of stone. Well, that was taught to me at a very early age – if I didn’t “feel,” then I didn’t have to “think,” etc…so, I’m “getting in touch with” allowing myself, or permitting myself, to actually FEEL. Even when the feelings are not based upon fact, they’re still very real.

        “Feelings are not facts” remains a strong mantra for me – most of my feelings and emotions were never based upon facts which is why I chose 2 very different spaths as partners. Not to suggest that I “deserved” the experiences that I had, but that I probably didn’t realize that I had other options than choosing the lowest of the low, the “unwanted,” and the broken. That was codependency at its very worst.

        Strongawoman, you’ll sort it all out, in due time, and you’re just fine whichever way your path takes you. You’ve had enough recovery under your belt, and I believe that the conflicting emotions are 100% normal when it involves someone who was so disordered.


        • Dearest Truthy, you always speak common sense. Thank you for giving me “permission” to grieve. I like the phrase “loss is loss.” I lost both my parents within ten months of each other and it was very hard. It still is! I totally agree that denying an emotion is not a good thing. we must find a way of dealing with these feelings. They may not be facts but they sure do exist. Conflicting emotions? You betcha!
          My dearest wish is that every person who has had the misfortune of such an entanglement, can find peace.

          ((((Hugs right back at ya, Truthy)))) and Towanda for surviving to us all xxxx

          • Strongawoman, I’ve been learning a little bit about “permission” in counseling, and it’s something that I have finally come to grasp as much more than just a concept. It all started with “being okay” by simply “being okay.” “Being okay” became “good enough,” which was something that I had never felt or believed about myself during my entire lifetime.

            So, the conflicting feelings about the death of a spath that we were on intimate terms with is 100% “normal.” Why wouldn’t we have those feelings of sadness, relief, pity, and so forth? We’re compassionate beings – we FEEL, which was what caught the eye of the spaths, to begin with. To deny that we are feeling, compassionate beings is to deny our own existence. Is anyone really going to “JUDGE” us for having feelings, even if they’re conflicted? I don’t think that they will, and anyone who sits in judgement is OUT of the proverbial loop, so to speak.

            I’ve passed a crossroad on my journey of recovery and healing. I’m well into recovery, and finally HEALING, and part of that process is acknowledging my own humanity, and that I’m “okay” regardless.

            Your feelings are your feelings – you’re not making any decisions based upon those feelings, but you’re simply allowing them to flow over and through you, as a being. Just like waves roll through a patch of kelp seaweed, so do these emotions and feelings. And, then, they roll onward beyond the horizon.


      • Truthy, Strongawoman, Oxy,
        Wow, this topic could be an article or even an entire book, entitled, “Death of a Psychopath”. 🙂
        There is so much depth to plumb on this topic. How does one reconcile the fact that our emotions were being manipulated with the fact that our emotions were real? That is what the psychopath understands and envies: we have real emotions and they can play with them.

        If we don’t process these emotions, we become like the psychopath: shallow. If we do, we can grow as human beings but we give spaths the same credit we would give authentic human beings.

        Maybe it’s like this: Oxy has often mentioned that we process grief and loss, the same way regardless of how intense it is. I think, Oxy, that you read about it in, “Man’s Search for Meaning” ? Your comparison with a baby who drops his pacifier and cries inconsolably with the grief an adult might suffer, is so true. And like Truthy describes, an addict grieving an addiction must process that grief too.

        In the end, we grow. Then we look back at that grief and it’s less painful. We say, “I remember when…” It seemed so important at the time.

        There is also the difference between should’ve, could’ve and might’ve been. Perhaps that is another distinction that helps us recover. What happens or doesn’t happen, with a spath is a should’ve vs. a could’ve. They lie about the could’ve, since they are incapable of ever doing what they should’ve. It could never have happened.

        Believe me, Truthy, 5 years plus later, I still grieve what I feel SHOULD have been with various spaths that I’ve known. They were family members and friends in my mind. The only resolution I’ve been able to come to is that it never COULD have been because they were incapable.

        I think that it was Oprah who said something like, “forgiveness is accepting that the past could have been any different.” When they die, that is the end of the malignant hope that the future could hold a promise. But as far as forgiveness goes, I’m nowhere near that because they have never been sorry.

        • Sky, I learned about grief from studying Elizabeth Kubler-Ross’s research when I was in school, how grief is processed is a necessary tool for a clinical medical professional as all patients are IN GRIEF for one thing or another..because they are going to die, because their loved one is dying, or loss of health etc. so grief is something I worked with every day of my working life in medicine.

          The pacifer is something I came up with after reading Man’s Search for Meaning, which was THE book that helped me see that my grief was OK…and that my loss was just as BIG as anyone else’s even though they had been in a Nazi concentration camp. I was feeling guilty about feeling grief. LOL That snapped me out of it and I “SAW THE LIGHT” as it were that my grief was OK and I had a RIGHT to feel it and process it.

          Like Truthy I had been programmed to suck up my emotions and not feel them because I didn’t “deserve” to feel them, my feelings were not good, valid or okay, I had to stuff them and take care of the feelings of others. DUH? What a crock!

          As for the forgiveness angle…when we hold the anger (like a malignant cancer of the soul) that anger eats at US not the person we are angry at. Forgiveness I think is FOR US NOT THEM. The shedding of the bitterness allows us to move on in the healing process and to FREE us from the negative emotions about them. I know Patrick is not sorry and never will be, but I feel compassion for him as an incomplete human who can never know love…just like I would feel compassion for him if he were mentally retarded and could never fully know lots of things, but that does not mean that I want a relationshit with him only that I no longer get the surge of stress and pain when I think about him. I have simply gotten rid of the bitterness that I could not change him and he will not change. I’ve reached ACCEPTANCE of what he is. I don’t like it, but I can’t control it or change it. It just IS WHAT IT IS.

        • Sky, I don’t know if you’ve read the book that OxD mentions by Kubler-Ross, but it might be a good source of information.

          Forgiveness. Even if we are practicing atheists, “forgiveness” holds a Divine entendre – a spiritual and/or religious significance, which makes it all that more challenging to achieve. I really like what OxD mentioned about it – it’s accepting “What Is,” instead of ruminating about “What Should Be.” Sure, grieve the “What Should Have Been,” but acceptance of “What Is” means that we have reached that point where we realize that nothing we can wish for, pray for, hope for, beg for, whine for, plead for, or throw a tantrum for is going to alter the outcome, one iota. Forgiveness is absolutely that point when we realize and accept that it is what it is, and we’re so much more than “what it is.”

          Acceptance = no negotiations or bargaining will change what something is.
          Forgiveness = sitting with “acceptance” and taking it for what it is, whether the facts are pleasant, agreeable, or likeable, or not

          We don’t have to “forgive’ the sins of others – we do this for ourselves, not for them. Holding out on forgiveness is sort of like an old dog that has a tiny flake of a favorite bone left that it worries about and frets about – it guards that shard of bone with ferocity and is unwilling to let that shard go – it’s TOO familiar to let go of. But, what that old dog doesn’t realize is that there are new, meaty marrow bones just a few lousy yards away, if it would JUST let that bone fragment go and move away from it without a backward glance.

          Forgiveness is for us……..not them. By letting go of that negative fragment of bone, we leave a space that can be filled with calm, with love, with peace, and tranquility – things that a spath will never, ever, EVER experience in their lifetime, or even in death.

          ……..gentle hugs, Sky…….(((((((((((hugs))))))))))) It will come, in due time. When you’re ready.

          • Truly your explaining of “acceptance” and letting go of the old, hurtful, painful anger/emotions of injury is very good.

            If we are still ACTIVELY emotionally angry at someone for some injury they have done us then we are STILL in the grieving process for that injury.

            The thing about acceptance (and reaching that stage) is that like all other of the “stages” of grief it is at first a “come and go” party. We may reach acceptance and then something triggers us and we fall back into anger or bargaining etc and then we reach acceptance again and then something else happens to trigger us…just like the other stages of grief, denial, sadness, bargaining and anger…we flip flop for either triggers or other “reasons” but eventually we pretty much get to acceptance and STAY there.

            In the case of me with my P sperm donor and Strongawoman’s Ex’s deaths that was a BIG trigger that leads to FINAL CLOSURE of that relationship.

            Like with the death of a beloved spouse, child, etc. it takes YEARS not months, to resolve that grief and come to acceptance of what IS. Sometimes people NEVER reach that and stay stuck in the other emotions for the rest of their lives. I have a friend whose beloved adult daughter died in a car crash almost the same time my husband died, 10 yrs ago and she is still DEEPY in depression over that girl’s death. She quit her job, and just became a hermit.

            With my step father’s death, 6 months after my husband, we had done our grieving BEFORE he died and when he finally passed we were ready to let him go and he was ready to go. I can think ab out him with out any sadness, and my late husband too, because I’ve processed the grieving to ACCEPTANCE and now I can think of them with joy and fondness and love, not other emotions.

            With a person we have had INJURY from, be it their death or their leaving us or being tossed out, it is much more difficult.

            With patrick, frankly I’m afraid of him, and I think my melt down was more in tune with anxiety about that fear (and his parole coming up which might have let him out) and then going into a PANIC ATTACK that lasted nearly 6 months. Now that I have realized what that “melt down” was caused by and what it was, I hope to avoid it in the future parole hearings and not let it over come me.

            I think looking back with 20/20 HIND sight that my sadness and mixed emotions over the death of the sperm donor was partly caused by the fact that at the time I was living in hiding from the man Patrick sent to kill me…and I was emotionally a basket case at the time. I wasn’t “sad” he died, relieved really, but did some grieving I think over “what might have been” but wasn’t. It didn’t last long in any case even with my diminished state.

            Grief is a complicated emotional process, and understanding it helps us to process it I think. It can RUIN our lives though if it causes us to retain bitterness or anger or any other of the emotional ladders except acceptance. But knowing allows us to work on these emotions and process our feelings toward acceptance and at last to STAY in acceptance, letting go of the other emotions.

          • Sky, and to clarify………I’m a deeply spiritual person and I hold to many of the doctrines of Christianity, but I also know that, historically speaking, a great number of those doctrines were manipulated and invented by men who intended to use and abuse the simple spiritual teachings of The Christ to suit their own needs.

            To imagine that “forgiveness” is a requirement to be accepted into Heaven, or that it’s required by a practicing Christian is ludicrous, and it’s arrogant. We are only human beings, and “forgiveness” has always been meant for us – not the people who have deliberately harmed us. Just like “turning the other cheek” does not (IMHO) require us to recognize that we are being abused, and to continue enduring abuse because that’s what a devout Follower is required to do. If we have witnessed and seen factual evidence that an individual is poisonous, spath, or abusive, then forgiving them is more akin to snapping our fingers in the air and saying, “Well, they are what they are, and I’m out….” and moving on without rage, malice, or revenge in the offing.

            We know that someone is evil. We’ve seen it. We’ve experienced it, ourselves, and we’ve seen that evil done to others. Moving away from that evil is not a sin – it’s a moral and ethical imperative to protect our most precious vulnerabilities and qualities so that we can actually “do good” to others, instead of ruminating about vengeance, consequences, or how badly we were damaged.

            Oh, and this takes time……it surely, surely does. But, it doesn’t mean that we’re “bad people” if we don’t get to that point, immediately. God (or, Whomever) gave each and every empathetic and compassionate thing on this planet the Keys To The Kingdom, and no man, woman, or child can dictate or pronounce whom is worthy or deserving of entering Heaven. We’re all worthy and deserving.

        • Oxy and Truthy,
          I think I might have a different view of forgiveness than what you might. For me, forgiveness IS reconciliation. It means to bring someone back into your life and allow them to make amends. It also REQUIRES confession. I mean, how can I forgive someone who has not even admitted that they need forgiveness?

          (As an aside: this reminds me of the spath who told me that I HAD to forgive him because I’m a Christian. Of course I did forgive him, just because I found his entire behavior so pathetic and laughable — he had made a fool of himself. So he was admitting his transgression without being sorry but he made me laugh so I forgave him. LOL! It still makes me laugh when I recall him.)

          It’s hard for me to NOT forgive, since being “responsible” is my natural tendency. I have to work hard at not forgiving. I don’t tend to hold bitterness toward spaths but it’s important to remain repulsed by them so that I don’t let them back into my life. There are a few spaths that I haven’t forgiven because I don’t want them in my life and they will continue to try.

          Then there are other spaths who are currently dangerous to me and I make sure to keep them in the “really despise” category. It’s unfortunate but at this point in my life, that’s the only way I’m able to stay aware of how dangerous they are.

          I think that if you can’t walk away from a spath, because they are in your environment, it’s important to remain vigilant. Sometimes negative emotions are the only way that I can do that. I hope that one day I won’t require feeling “sickened” by them to keep them at bay. I’m not sure that’s even possible since the meaning of the word “psychopath” is “soul sickness”.

          I read somewhere that “psychological hygiene” is a state of emotional indifference toward psychopaths who are currently influencing our environment. There are several things one can do to achieve psychological hygiene but I can only remember one of them: surround yourself with good people and spend as much time with them as possible.

          So you should know that your gentle hugs and kind words have helped me immensely with my psychological hygiene. Thank you and (((((BIG HUGS))))) back.

          • Sky, I was TAUGHT that “forgiveness” INCLUDED RECONCILIATION, however, the summer of “Chaos” when I was in hiding, I read the Bible continually, and the story of Joseph (as in the coat of many colors) which is a familiar story told to children …I read and re read that story. I had always wondered why Joseph was so mean to his brothers..then it hit me, HE WAS TESTING THEM to see what kind of men they had become…I wrote an article about it… http://familyarrested.com/a-biblical-view-of-forgiveness-versus-restoration-of-trust/

            I realized that I can GET RID OF THE BITTERNESS out of my heart (“forgive”) them but RESTORATION OF TRUST and RECONCILIATION **does** REQUIRE a demonstration of remorse, understanding and making amends (if possible) a REAL apology, not just “im sorry but I don’t want to discuss it” or “pretending it never happened” and also must include a show that the person understands HOW you were hurt by what they did and a promise that they will not behave that way in the future.

            That failure to acknowledge that what they did was wrong, that they will not do it again and to show that they understand how and why I was hurt by their actions…well without that, there IS NO RECONCILIATION for me.

            People who blame others for the bad things they have done “well, he told me to do it” etc are NOT ACCEPTING RESPONSIBILITY for their actions (typical disordered attitude) and to me that is NOT a show of remorse and does NOT allow me to reconcile with them.

            My oldest son has frequently betrayed me, and when his decisions result in disaster for him, he would come back to me telling me “mom you are a prophet” but then when he is back on his feet again, with my help of course…he no longer feels he needs me, so back to lies and betrayal. He isn’t a psychopath,but he is NOT trustworthy and I will no longer enable him. I can’t continually trust him even though he APPEARS to be sorry for what he has done…because he REPEATS the betrayals so I see a PATTERN of this behavior over a long period of time. “FOOL ME ONCE, SHAME ON YOU, FOOL ME TWICE, SHAME ON ME”

          • Sky, what OxD typed makes a whole lot of sense to me, particularly when I consider the first abusive exspath and how he tried to use Biblical references to excuse and rationalize his abuse and violence. He often referred to our “marital vows” that I had promised to “obey,” etc. Well, I do not believe, by any stretch of the imagination, that God (Great Creator, Jehovah, etc.) desires any human being to live in an environment of willful misery – either self-inflicted, or done so by others. I honestly don’t.

            I also don’t believe that “forgiveness” is the ultimate requirement to make victims of any crime, abuse, or torture “whole” and representative of being devout. We need to keep in mind, at all times, where the interpretations of The Messages came from, and the majority of those interpretations revolved around building a solid religion and keeping as many “followers” in line, as possible. “Forgiveness” holds a religious connotation for me – not spiritual, but religious. Once I got beyond the religion and saw what the benefit was for my own spirit, then it became a little more sensible.

            Have I forgiven everyone that I might “need” to? Not by a long shot. And, the most important one to forgive is myself – and, I’m just now contemplating that as a possibility.

            Like OxD, I was taught a convenient definition of “forgiveness” that included forgiving my mother for getting drunk, threatening to kill me while she was drunk, and all of the other things that I experienced – and, then, she would do the same things, again, and again, until she stopped drinking. But, by the time she stopped drinking, the damages were done – I was worthless, undeserving, unwanted, un-loveable, unworthy, and every other “UN-.”

            Separating the religious connotation from the spiritual is a challenge. One approach involves “rules of control and power,” while the other approach involves choices and options to free the soul. Sometimes, a beautiful marriage of religion and spirituality exists, and I have yet to experience that, myself.

            So, more (((((hugs))))) your way, Sky.

      • Truthy,you are 110% spot on about grieving and that is what we do is to grieve the loss of what our EXPECTATIONS were. I EXPECTED to be proud of my son Patrick…but he was and is a psychopath without conscience and everything I did to try to “support” and “heal” him, set him on the right path was an exercise in futility. The same with ANY psychopathic person in any relationship.

  3. Strongawoman, I think that your reaction is maybe not what you EXPECTED but I think it is very much what I experienced at the death of my biological father. I sure did not EXPECT to react the way I did and the memories flooded back, of the rape, the beating, the lies he told everyone, my mother’s refusing to believe me about the rape. and on and on and on. Looking back I have no doubt that I had PTSD back then, and I had no rape counselor to tell me that I SHOULD NOT BE ASHAMED, and I was ashamed that he had done that to me…and on and on and ON, the emotions flowed, but in the end, I realized what a WORM –an EVIL worm –he was. I also like Sky said had compassion for what he never had…a real friend, a real lover. And he onnly picked on, used and abused, those he knew he could succeed in harming or conning. He was at heart a coward trying to pretend he was this big MACHO MAN, the “smartest man in the world” but in the end, I realized he had CRAVED, NEEDED the admiration of others, and yet he despised those others. He needed to feel in control, and yet, I t hink, inside he felt NO control, and that he was always feeling insecure and a lot of his macho carp was a cover for his real feelings of inadequacy. Maybe I am “giving” him emotions he didn’t feel, but the bottom line is that HE NEVER HAD THE WONDERFUL THINGS WE DO…friends, lovers, and LOVE, compassion. etc.

    I think that is one reason why they are so sexually permiscious is that they KNOW that WE get something out of sex besides pure animal lust…and they don’;t know WHAT it is but they know we get SOMETHING that they didn’t get and so they go from partner to partner SEEKING that “something” but of course they never find it. Sex for empaths is more than animal lust, it IS “making love” but they never have that.

    Ultimately, after the initial “shock” and angst which his death brought back, I now have a complete acceptance of what he was, have processed the damage he did to me, and actually feel some compassion for anyone or any thing that is so devoid of a soul and the happiness that we get from interacting with those we love. He never had that, never had a friend (because everyone was prey) Now he is dead and can’t hurt me or anyone else and I have “buried” him and everything about him. I can now think about him (just as I am this minute as I write about him) and FEEL N O PAIN because my grief for what “could have been” has reached acceptance and is staying there.

    I think your rumination over all this will soon end and you too will come to COMPLETE PEACE about the whole ordeal. God bless.

  4. OxD, you wrote, above, about grieving and the stages being a stop-and-go type of thing, along with some other priceless insights that (for whatever reason) I can’t copy-and-paste, but they are PRICELESS words of insight.

    I never imagined or believed that I would “get over” the second exspath’s betrayals and deceptions. Well, I can’t say that I’m 100% “OVER IT,” but I’ve come to acceptance, and I am not required or bound to “like” whatever it is that I’m accepting. Whatever it is is whatever it is, and I can’t go back and alter the outcome or make better decisions in the past. I only have “right now” – the present – to work with.

  5. Truthy, I’m not so much convinced we “get over” it as reach an absolute ACCEPTANCE and reach that NIRVANA OF INDIFFERENCE.

    The “opposite of LOVE” is NOT “hate” it is TOTAL INDIFFERENCE where we just “really couldn’t care” Where we have no compassion, no empathy for them, just look at them or anything that happens to them as not of ANY concern to us.

    If I watch the news and see some poor person in a war zone I will feel empathy for them and at least WISH I could help them so I am NOT indifferent to their plight, though I have to rein in my empathy or I could never watch the news…but with INDIFFERENCE we are less concerned about them than we would be a story on the news. TOTAL and complete indifference is I think pretty close to impossible to achieve but we can reach a level of it where we no longer HATE THEM or harbor bitterness that poisons our soul about them or what they did. The Bible tells us not to gloat when our enemy is overtaken in troubles, I know that is what I SHOULD do but find it hard not to gloat just a little. LOL

    I’m convinced though that we must put the anger and bitterness behind us ini order to even approach the nirvana of indifference which I think will lead to our own persona peace. It is a thing to strive for but I think it will be impossible to get 100% but the closer Ii get the better I feel and the better Ii am able to cope.

    • OxD, what a terrific way to describe the whole process. Yes, the “hatred” isn’t the opposite of “love,” on any level. Well, for me, that’s true. For me, “hatred” is an emotion that is so intense with anger and rage that it’s beyond my ability to govern. So, achieving the “Nirvana Of Indifference” is priceless and I love, love, LOVE that phrase………seriously!

      To reach that blessed realm, it is my firm belief that I have to feel every emotion associated with whatever it is, process it, and then fill that space with positive affirmations. I AM okay. Okay IS “good enough.” “Good enough” is who I am. I DO believe in myself. I AM calm………etc. When I’m at that point, that’s when I’m able to let go and feel no regret. And, it’s just one part of many in the course of recovery and healing.

  6. Sometimes it is difficult to “believe” the “positive affirmations” of “I am okay” blah blah blah, and Ii was having problems with that. I wrote an article for another blog years ago (not my current blog) and started off with SIMPLE affirmations of different “parts” of me. “My lungs are working well, they bring oxygen to my body, my lungs are great!” “My feet are really great, they get me from place to place and they don’t hurt, yes, my feet are really good things”” etc. but you know it worked! I started to see the “little parts” of myself in a more positive light and the affirmations were TRUE and easily seen to BE true.

    I don’t ever expect to actually 100% reach that Nirvana of indifference, but I’m getting closer and closer I know when I see or run into or even think about a former abuser I don’t get that JOLT of NEGATIVE feelings like I used to. Maybe some monks in a mystical eastern religion that meditate 24/7 can actually reach that level of indifference but I do not have to reach 100% indifference to benefit from getting as close to it as I can.and that requires that I let go of the intense fermented high octane anger which is what the Bible calls WRATH….and says “let the sun not go down upon your wrath”—wrath is not just ordinary anger but that FESTERED rotted hate, bitterness and anger all mixed up that we dwell on day and night. Anger is no sin, heck Jesus was angry at times, anger is a normal emotion, the damage it does is if we keep it around and ferment (for lack of a better word) it so that the resulting super anger eats US like a cancer.

  7. […] con’s of vengeance. Should you find yourself in a situation demanding revenge, feel free to read all the debates before deciding a course of action. Granted it can and has lead to much more harm to others […]

    I don’t know what this above response is in reference to, but I have never witnessed a “successful” revenge effort. It’s almost trading calm and balance for a taste of the World Of Psychopathy where karma isn’t thought to exist.

    • Exactly I think it is a spam post from the site that is touting vengeance and so I just ignored it. Let sky handle it when she has time. LOL

      What you wrote above, Truthy about relilgious versus spiritual “forgiveness” I agree with. Many times the words of the Bible are TWISTED to control others.

      My own maternal unit is all about YOU “forgiving” (meaning pretend it didn’t happen) what nasty things she has done, but HAIL NO, SHE WILL NEVER FORGET any “sin” you have committed and will bring it up 40 years later. She holds a grudge for-eeeever! LOL The forgive and pretend it didn’t happen and restoring trust to that person who repeatedly hurts you over and over and OVER never did feel RIGHT to me, but the summer of chaos when I started studying the Bible without HER interpretation, I came to some very deep SPIRITUAL truths. I found NOTHING that Jesus said for us to do that does NOT benefit US. EVERY “command” is for OUR BENEFIT.

      Paul takes it on as well telling us to totally go NC with those who will not repent of their sins against us. Treat them like a heathen he said, NOT EVEN TO EAT WITH THEM. Stay away from people who are thieves, two faced, malicious, drunks, etc etc. and I could go on and on. The story of Joseph and his coat of many colors touched me very much. I had always wondered why he was so mean to his brothers, he was NOT BEING MEAN, he was testing them to see what kind of men they had become BEFORE he revealed to them who he was. It was a TOUGH test, but he saw eventually that they had CHANGED and that they DID repent of what pain they had caused their father by convincing him that Joseph was dead and that they would sacrifice their own lives to prevent him losing their brother Benjamin.

      I saw the logic of what Joseph did as well as the love he had for his brothers and that he had forgiven them, BUT if they had not changed I do not believe he would have revealed himself to them. I think some people DO change for the better, but NOT ALWAYS, and not frequently I don’t think when someone has gone to the depths of the moral abyss, I think it is near impossible for them to get out of it. Then there is the genetic component that makes it more difficult for some people to quit drinking and raging, and some folks are “dry drunks” who are still psychopaths when they are sober.

      What is done to children, the violence that they witness, plus the genetic component if they are also biiologically related to the abuser gives those kids the double whammy of bad environment AND bad DNA and the two of them together are lethal.

    • The link above is not spam, it’s a link from a blog that writes about “conspiracy theory” mostly. I left it because the general atmosphere reminds me of a spath I used to know. He taught me a lot about disordered personalities, both his own and that of our culture. Spaths tend to have good insight into evil, what they lack is insight into what is good and healthy. Healthier people, on the other hand, can’t even imagine how a disordered person thinks, so we get duped by evil people.

      Although I do censor foul language, I don’t censor ideas because I think we can learn from almost every one. So I left it up.

      The article it links to is about revenge. I’m not sure that it encourages revenge, mostly it just discusses the pros and cons. It doesn’t seem to me though, that the author actually understands revenge very well. What I’ve learned from Rene Girard is that historically revenge escalates through reciprocal violence. It slimes the surrounding community and eventually requires an innocent scapegoat to bring order back into the community. No, that doesn’t make sense that an innocent should be recruited for the scapegoat job but that is very often what happens and it seems to work temporarily. Then the cycle of violence begins all over again.

  8. I wanted to revive the title of this article – revenge. And, I wanted to address the feeling that everyone has experienced to exact revenge against someone that has harmed us.

    First of all, my belief is that it is 100% “normal” to FEEL the need to exact revenge. But, what makes the idea of revenge into a toxic obsession really depends upon our own emotional health. If we were raised in an environment of support, guidance, unconditional love, acceptance, and nurturing, we are confident and emotionally healthy, and we “know” that we are “allowed” to walk away from toxicity. However, if we were raised in an environment of dysfunction, deception, abuse, neglect, abandonment, ridicule, and humiliation, we do not have a healthy sense of confidence, and we are not emotionally healthy enough to “let it go.” AND, I am NOT a fan of that stupid song from the movie, “Frozen,” for a variety of reasons, so that’s not what I’m referencing.

    The best “revenge” is to live well. To live well means to release anger. If we aren’t emotionally healthy, we don’t know HOW to express and release anger in a healthy manner. We want to have the last word. We want to “teach them a lesson.” We want them to acknowledge what they’ve done to us. But, we’re not going to succeed in generating ANY genuine response because these people simply don’t care. Why they don’t care isn’t our business. THAT they don’t care is simply an irrefutable fact.

    It’s all about how we want to live. Will “revenge” serve any purpose for us, personally? Will the short-lived feeling of satisfaction be enough, or will our expectations actually fall short of the real outcome?

    I believe that this is a normal reaction, and that it dissipates into acceptance, in due time. Sometimes, the “in due time” becomes “in due years!” LOL!! At least, for me, that’s been how it went! 🙂

  9. Truthy, research has shown that when we are injured by someone and we even THINK about revenge the brain actually gives us a shot of the “feel good chemicals” in the pleasure center of our brain, so revenge is a NORMAL NATURAL thing in our species and other of the “great apes” but, to over come this thinking I think is very important.

    I go back to the time the man across teh road from us who owned the land the plane crash that killed my husband was in sued me for $50K for HIS “emotional suffering” and he needed money to make him feel better. I lay awake at night for nearly 6 months plotting how to kill him and get away with it. I was so bitter and filled with rage I couldn’t function. But then some how, I realized what this bitterness and rage and wanting revenge was doing TO ME. It took a while but I got that bitterness out of my mind and heart. I no longer feel bitter toward that man, I feel nothing. The nirviana of indifference.

    I think it is important that we get over the need and the desire for revenge, the feelings of bitterness etc. Then we can truly heal our hearts and minds.

  10. I thought that I would “revive” this subject for personal reasons.

    For me, it’s been 4 years and 6 days since I discovered that the man that I had been married to for 12 /12 years and been involved with for 14 1/2 years had been a fraud. In that time, I have survived, recovered, and begun my journey down my individual Healing Path. My desire to get even with the psychopath was pronounced. It almost became a pathology for me, and I didn’t understand this until I’d been involved in intensive counseling therapy with a trauma specialist for over a year.

    “An eye for an eye,” sounds reasonable, doesn’t it? But, in “my world,” it’s only applicable to those who have a conscience and sense of remorse. Is it appropriate to cause another person to feel guilty for something that they’ve done? Well, if what they did harmed someone else, it might be appropriate. Surely, consequences should follow for things that we do, but in the “Sociopath’s Universe,” there is no such thing as “guilt,” or remorse. When a person lacks a conscience, they are quite literally incapable of “feeling” anything in the same manner that a person who DOES have a conscience will. Sociopaths do not “feel” emotions in the same way – in my experiences, the only things that they appear to “feel” to any degree are envy, anger, and rage. Even “satisfaction” doesn’t qualify because it’s not a source of contentment for these people, but more a source of envy because “satisfaction” isn’t enough for them. They cannot abide the possibility that there might be MORE that they can take, destroy, manipulate, or harm.

    So, when it comes to “revenge,” it’s a wasted effort because they will not – WILL NOT – “get it” that their actions have created consequences. For the empathetic individuals, we find it uncomfortable to “feel” guilty about something and we often adjust our own behaviors to avoid repeating the same event to cause the discomfort. We “get it” about cause-and-effect, whereas the sociopath does not. If there are consequences to their choices, actions, or decisions, then those consequences are simply an inconvenience and can be overcome by a number of ways.

    There was an appalling movie that I saw some years ago titled, “Goodfellas.” This movie, IMHO, accurately depicted an utter absence of conscience amongst the mafia members to the point that even prison time meant nothing to them – they could bribe or con the guards and administration into allowing all manners of contraband while they “served out their time” according to the requirements of the Law. It was almost like a boys’ campout, as depicted by this screenplay.

    So, what does that have to do with seeking revenge against a psychopath? To put it bluntly: IT WON’T MATTER. It won’t “teach” the psychopath anything, or even cause them to think, “Hey……I shouldn’t have __________ to that person.” They don’t operate in the same Universe that empathetic beings do. Therefore, attempting to assign the same level of morals, ethics, and laws to them is just about as reasonable as assigning human attributes to a sea cucumber. It’s impossible.

    The BEST “revenge” against a psychopath is to move out of their field of gravity. When a target “escapes,” it’s the only kick in the teeth that they experience. And, by “escape,” I mean just that. Even the murderous psychopaths don’t feel any loss when they end a victim’s life – they just feel that momentary sense of power, and prepare to move on to the next victim which is precisely WHERE the buildup begins for them. When they murder their victims, they are in control and any victim that ESCAPES creates a reaction of rage that is beyond our ability to comprehend.

    For those of us who have escaped the non-murderous psychopath, our escape is ENOUGH of a vengeance, even if it was the psychopath that dumped us. They expect their targeted victims to run back to them, to beg with them, plead with them, and dialogue with them AFTER the discard – the response to their victims’ actions is as powerful to them as any physical response could be. When the former victim does NOT respond in the “typical” manner, they feel disappointed and rage ensues. When we walk away without a backward glance, THEY become enraged and their proverbial noses are rubbed into their own waste of inadequacies and folly. They hate, they rage, and they experience their own spin cycle until they’ve found another target.

    Don’t feed the spaths…………absolutely. I got out, alive. That’s enough for me. The Universe requires a balance to all things – matter / anti-matter, birth of stars, super novas when stars die, carrion fowl to eliminate death, etc………And, all of the evil that spaths bring with them must be balanced out and accounted for by forces that we do not control. It all works itself out, in the end, whether we are aware of it, or not. A balanced, centered, and relatively calm life AFTER spaths is the best and most fulfilling “revenge” possible.

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